Posts by Cold Steel

15

Sketches of Revelation, this and that

by TerryWalstrom in

i've been rummaging around on bart ehrman's blog and such and managed to distill six cogent views about.

the book of revelation, i thought i share for whatever it is worth.

1. parts of the book of revelation could scarcely be explained if it were written by jesus own disciple, john.

Cold Steel

Viviane: When they mention Jerusalem being destroyed, I mention that the Bible doesn't say when or by whom, they are adding that, all the "prophecy" is doing is saying that something that happened before would happen again DURING a time a rebellion was going on (assuming it was written prior to the events described, which there is no proof for).

I recommend a book entitled The Islamic Antichrist, by Joel Richardson. I believe you would find it compelling. He's also written a follow-up book entitled The Mideast Beast. It's amazing how much Islamic and Jewish/Christian eschatology parallels each other. The only difference is that the good guys in biblical eschatology are the bad guys in Islamic eschatology, and vice versa. Even the black flags being used now are part of Islamic prophecy, but one can always say it's self-fulfilling prophecy. As a believer, I'm amazed at how the fulfillment of prophecy is playing out. But I'm also amazed at how awful Watchtower exegeses is. There is no U.N. in the Bible, nor do I believe Obama is there. 🐲

Here's how the end is viewed by many Muslims:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=dY2uVNcUSbc

The Mahdi and the Muslim “Jesus“ in Islamic prophecy very carefully parallel the Antichrist and false prophet of Christian prophecy. In both scenarios, Jerusalem is attacked, by the Muslim forces in Muslim eschatology, and by Gog (Antichrist) in Jewish/Christian eschatology. The only difference is, the Dajjal (Islamic Antichrist), which is the Jewish Messiah, appears and is defeated or, as Christians see it, defeats the armies of Gog.

Both the Mahdi and the Antichrist will rule for seven years.

That's just a little too close for coincidence. I've always wondered why, when the Messiah comes, the Antichrist attacks him. The reason is, they think he's the evil one foretold in their prophecies.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=nwr3fC_jY0s

15

Sketches of Revelation, this and that

by TerryWalstrom in

i've been rummaging around on bart ehrman's blog and such and managed to distill six cogent views about.

the book of revelation, i thought i share for whatever it is worth.

1. parts of the book of revelation could scarcely be explained if it were written by jesus own disciple, john.

Cold Steel

Yet the Armageddon of scripture is so vastly different than that taught by the adventists, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, who regard it as an endtime judgment of God upon the world, which only they will escape. But the early Christians viewed it far differently. They, as well as the Jews, saw Armageddon as an endtime assault on Jerusalem in which the messiahs of Joseph and David would deliver the city from its enemies, establish peace and order and usher in an era governed by a theocracy.

Clearly the Jews hoped for such deliverance from the Romans -- a deliverance that was not forthcoming. The Christians, however, knew that Jerusalem and the temple were doomed, and they fled to Syria under the guidance of their leaders, who presumably were guided by revelation. They knew, in my view, that many things remained to be done. They knew about the scattering of the Jews and that Judah would eventually be gathered to the lands of their inheritance. This began happening in the 1870s and continues to this day. Eventually, however, Jerusalem would face an enemy it could not prevail against; and in the final hours of that conflict, the great Messiah ben David would personally appear and save his people and destroy all but a sixth of the invaders. (See Ezek. 38-39, Isaiah 11:10-12, Zechariah 12-14)

2

The Two Witnesses SHOCK

by artcritic in

i have done extensive research into finding out who really is the two witnesses of rev.

this may be a shock to some in the watchtower yet i give you evidence from paul and peter.

i would copy it here but some forums dont like you doing that.updated blog link below https://artcriticman.wordpress.com/the-t...the-great/

Cold Steel

Well, I suppose people will come up with many interpretations, but I see the two prophets as two individual prophets...literal witnesses that will protect Jerusalem for the space of 3.5 years as prophesied. There are only so many levels of representations that can be given. The lampstands represent two prophets...two witnesses who, with the power of God, will withstand Gog's onslaught. John specifically calls them prophets. A group of people cannot constitute a single prophet to produce the power these two prophets will wield.

Some believe these two prophets to be Moses and Elijah. The scriptures say Moses died; however, all Joshua and the other Israelites saw was Moses caught up in a cloud. We also know from Joel that Lucifer had a dispute with Michael regarding Moses' body. So, was Moses also translated and taken up without tasting death?

I personally think these prophets will be living mortals, called to minister to the Jews. Why bring in prophets from bygone dispensations when it's never been done before?

But it's anyone's guess.

39

The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture

by cofty in

if you think the mormon church is off-the-scale crazy you probably don't know the half of it.. the historical information in this talk by david fitzgerald is fascinating.

the good news is that, just like the watchtower, their growth is being stunted by the internet.. grab a coffee and be amazed at just how gullible millions of people can be.. lucy harris has become my new heroine.

don't miss the section from 8:50.

Cold Steel

Please explain how the presentation of facts, evidence and reason is equivalent to bullying.

Very well. You post a virulent anti-Mormon video without first checking out its validity. Then, when caught, you say you don't care, you still like it. The facts were wrong, the evidence lacking and the reasoning was comedic. Bottom line, mate, it's if we can't trust you to check out a video or to apologize when confronted with the facts, how can we trust you to tell us the truth about atheism, Darwinism or anything else? I've never posted anything I was unsure of and then not apologized when wrong. But as an atheist, you lack a moral dimension about such things because you don't see the harm in it. It doesn't matter to you because it's a religion, and it deserves to be ridiculed. Last time we discussed atheism, I brought up this rationalization problem and shifting ethics that change to accommodate society. It shifts because it's not grounded in a firm and moral foundation.

39

The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture

by cofty in

if you think the mormon church is off-the-scale crazy you probably don't know the half of it.. the historical information in this talk by david fitzgerald is fascinating.

the good news is that, just like the watchtower, their growth is being stunted by the internet.. grab a coffee and be amazed at just how gullible millions of people can be.. lucy harris has become my new heroine.

don't miss the section from 8:50.

Cold Steel

This is why I get pissed with cult members who come here trying to recruit ExJWs to a new kind of crazy.

Well let's get something straight. I didn't start this message thread. I'm only responding to a staggering display of ignorance on the part of a hit and run sophomoric fellow who has, unfortunately learned to write before learning to think. I don't know, but I suspect he's in high school, has read a few books and thinks he has figured out just how the Universe is run. And BTW, he's also an atheist, which certainly qualifies as a religion. So some of us are not atheists, despite the wont of many of them that this all should be a board dedicated to ex-JWs who are now militant atheists. But many still want to be Christians and are bullied by outspoken critics of all religion.

If people here want to slam Mormonism, I believe I have the right to respond. And while I'm not here recruiting, I do encourage people not to reject Christianity, but to believe in Christ and continue searching.

39

The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture

by cofty in

if you think the mormon church is off-the-scale crazy you probably don't know the half of it.. the historical information in this talk by david fitzgerald is fascinating.

the good news is that, just like the watchtower, their growth is being stunted by the internet.. grab a coffee and be amazed at just how gullible millions of people can be.. lucy harris has become my new heroine.

don't miss the section from 8:50.

Cold Steel

Why would God or Maroni need these plates back? Why didn't they leave them if God wanted believers?

Actually those aren't bad questions. But first, if Smith was telling the truth he was not a fraudster, right? So why did the angel take the plates back? First, about two-thirds of the plates were sealed (see Isaiah 29:11-14; 18-21) and Smith wasn't permitted to translate them or even look at them. Also, the Lord, for whatever reason, doesn't ever provide anyone with proof until they have built an adequate foundation of faith. Evidence, yes, but definitive proof, almost never. (See reply to Cofty below.) Had Smith produced the plates for all to see, would that have proven his translation correct? No, all it would have proven was that he was in possession of an ancient artifact, and a valuable one at that. And do you believe he would have been able to keep them? How about the man upon whose land Smith found them? Wouldn't he have claimed a right to them? “After all, ol' Joe Smith found them on my land! He only came up with that 'translation' after he found them on my property!“ The stone box was still intact on the hill as well as the large rock covering it. Some of the early saints reported seeing them for some time and said they were there for all to see. But of course anyone could have constructed such and no one would have been the wiser.

Finally, if we had the plates today for all to see, would you become a Latter-day Saint? Something tells me you would simply find another objection.

Cofty: I thought the video was fascinating and informative. Your cult is crazier than the Watchtower.

So what you're saying is, “I care not what the truth is, I choose to believe it anyway!“ Joseph Smith said, “It is true [that men ] have eyes to see, and see not, but none are so blind as those who will not see.“ He also said that anyone can have proof if it is built on a foundation of faith, prayer and seeking. “And thus by learning the Spirit of God and understanding it,“ he said, “you may grow into the principle of revelation, until you become perfect in Christ Jesus.“ Thus, any person can attain the visions and power that Joseph Smith, Moses or any prophet who ever lived. “God hath not revealed anything to [me], but what he will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them....“

Believe what you will, then; you are only limiting yourself.

39

The Real History of Mormonism - Outstanding Lecture

by cofty in

if you think the mormon church is off-the-scale crazy you probably don't know the half of it.. the historical information in this talk by david fitzgerald is fascinating.

the good news is that, just like the watchtower, their growth is being stunted by the internet.. grab a coffee and be amazed at just how gullible millions of people can be.. lucy harris has become my new heroine.

don't miss the section from 8:50.

Cold Steel

Cofty, you never cease to amaze me. When people misrepresent atheism, you're the first to get your shorts in a knot. Now you post an absurd, amazingly inaccurate and inflammatory video where atheist David Fitzgerald, through blatantly false information and misrepresentation, carefully constructs a strawman for his audience, then knocks it down without a thought as far as accuracy is concerned.

Much of his “history“ is taken from early anti-Mormon books and later discredited as ridiculously lurid, sensational and of highly questionable pedigree. The only real grain of truth is the 1826 Bainbridge judgment against Smith, which is probably why Fitzgerald started off with it. But nearly every point he made he was wrong on. Smith's arrest, according to the report, was made on the oath of the son of his employer, Josiah Stowell, who was delighted with Joseph's work (which consisted mostly of physical labor). Two, the report was found by an avowed enemy of the church and someone who claimed a doctorate he didn't have. And three, the document never could be verified as genuine (and if genuine, it was the only surviving record recovered at the court). Wesley Walters, author of Kingdom of the Cults and the “discoverer“ of the record, said he believed God's hand was in the fact that one record survived. Do you buy that Cofty? More information can be found at:

http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/fair-conferences/2002-fair-conference/2002-the-1826-trial-of-joseph-smith

The quickest way to get laughs is to build one's strawman out of material that's built on lies, then ridicule it in the hopes that others won't check your sources too closely. One problem for anti-Mormons is that everything Joseph Smith taught was carefully recorded by educated recorders or found in multiple journals.

“In the mouth of two our three witnesses shall every word be established.“ Finding one account in one journal, like many of the sources your friend Fitzgerald does, or finding them in a book that references old anti-Mormon books that, worse, based them on affidavits collected by early anti-Mormon books, makes fine material for strawmen, but it's hardly scholarly.

But then, that audience really wasn't there for scholarly purposes, were they?

11

the GB stole my idea

by user100 in

so in the early 90's when i was about to get baptized the elder asked me a million questions and one of them was: .

who is the faithful and discreet slave?.

my answer:.

Cold Steel

What happens if/when members question this doctrine? Does it ever come up in public meetings or is this the type of question that gets you quickly escorted from the premises? It's a fair question, though.

6

The term elder should be lowercase not capitalized

by Jay Elle in

for some reason ever time i see term, "elder" capitalized i feel like correcting it.

they do not deserve that capital letter.

they are lowercase as a breed.

Cold Steel

Objectively, the term “elder“ is an office. As such, when you speak of such a person, you can lower case it unless it's used with a name. So it would be proper to say, “Elder Gogetter will be over for dinner on Wednesday.“ But it's okay to say, “I understand the elders have been encouraged to look for apostate literature when visiting the homes of members.“

22

You are invited to sit down with the GB members..

by James Mixon in

you have the opportunity to sit and discuss what's on your mind.. what would you tell them??.

my question, do you men have a heart, how do you sleep at nights??.

why do you think jehovah pick you to feed the sheep??.

Cold Steel

The system is devised so that members cannot access the Governing Body members. The reason? Because they see their jobs as feeding and not being fed. Of all the questions so far, The Searcher, I think, asked the best. How, exactly, did God/Christ select them to be the faithful slave? I think it's the one question that scares them more than any other; and it most likely is ONE QUESTION they must sometimes ask themselves when no one else is around. Each GB member is a prophet to the people...modern day apostles who hope when bad times come that they will be given the light to lead their people to safety. But so far, the silence is deafening. Like the Zealot leaders on Masada, they wait for guidance from On High even as the Romans ready their massive siege engine and grappling hooks. Too late they discover that the light will not be forthcoming...that the promised Messiah is not going to save them. They then realize they are not the Sons of Light after all. It must be a difficult question to ponder. And by the way, what happens to expensive cars that are donated to Bethel? Are they sold or do the Lord's chosen ones use it?